“I want to make more games. I don't know how many more I got in me.” – Josh Sawyer on Pentiment's second anniversary, and what's next
Last week, Pentiment from Obsidian Entertainment and Xbox Game Studios celebrated its 2nd anniversary. Pentiment was one of the biggest surprises for me back in 2022, and a game we at RPG Site enjoyed a lot. The narrative-driven murder mystery adventure RPG set in 16th-century Bavaria has since been ported to PlayStation and Nintendo Switch, gotten a plethora of merchandise, a vinyl soundtrack, and it remains a game I revisit often.
Exactly two years after it debuted on Xbox and PC back in November 15, 2022, I had a chance to talk to Josh Sawyer about Pentiment, game design, Obsidian Entertainment's workflow, his work on Avowed, vinyl soundtracks, choice and reactivity in Obsidian games, cheese, movie recommendations, books, and much more.
This interview has been slightly edited for clarity.
RPG Site: So for those who don't know you, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do at Obsidian Entertainment right now?
Josh Sawyer: My name is Josh Sawyer. I'm studio design director at Obsidian. I'm also a game director. I've been in the industry for 25 years. I started at Black Isle Studios in 1999. I worked briefly at Midway San Diego, but for the last 19 years I've been at Obsidian. Notably, I've directed Fallout New Vegas, Pillars of Eternity I and II, and Pentiment.
Josh Sawyer: My name is Josh Sawyer. I'm studio design director at Obsidian. I'm also a game director. I've been in the industry for 25 years. I started at Black Isle Studios in 1999. I worked briefly at Midway San Diego, but for the last 19 years I've been at Obsidian. Notably, I've directed Fallout New Vegas, Pillars of Eternity I and II, and Pentiment.
RPG Site: So what exactly does a studio design director do?
Josh Sawyer: That's a good question. It varies. At Obsidian, it's an advisory position, so I don't really tell people what to do, although I do tell them what I think they should do.
So I will look at the projects and talk to either individual designers or the director about specific design features or directions.
Anything from system design to narrative to UI/interface, things like that, and I give feedback. I also asked them questions like what are you trying to accomplish with this? What is your intended audience? How do you think they're going to react to this? But it is their choice what to do with my advice. So it's largely an advisory position which is why I'm able to also direct games. Because it's not a full time job really.
Josh Sawyer: That's a good question. It varies. At Obsidian, it's an advisory position, so I don't really tell people what to do, although I do tell them what I think they should do.
So I will look at the projects and talk to either individual designers or the director about specific design features or directions.
Anything from system design to narrative to UI/interface, things like that, and I give feedback. I also asked them questions like what are you trying to accomplish with this? What is your intended audience? How do you think they're going to react to this? But it is their choice what to do with my advice. So it's largely an advisory position which is why I'm able to also direct games. Because it's not a full time job really.
RPG Site: In the past you mentioned how after Pillars of Eternity II you kind of were in burnout for a long time and you needed a break. I want to know what a day in your life looks like right now, and how it differs from just after Pillars II shipped when you were in that burnout phase.
Josh Sawyer: So in the post Deadfire phase, I was not doing a lot of direct work. I wasn't doing any direct work really, so I was focusing more on playing. You know there were DLCs for Deadfire that were being developed with Brandon Adler as the director of those. The Outer Worlds was in development at that time, so I was playing those games and getting a lot of feedback on them. But I really wasn't in a mental position to come up with new ideas for games or much less do work on them or direct anything. That’s not the case now. So I am, you know, like I'm helping on Avowed. I am in an advisory role still, but I did a little bit of writing on Avowed. I've helped out with some system design and things like that.
Basically, wherever they needed help. I am doing more hands-on work there and then just thinking and talking about ideas for future projects.
Josh Sawyer: So in the post Deadfire phase, I was not doing a lot of direct work. I wasn't doing any direct work really, so I was focusing more on playing. You know there were DLCs for Deadfire that were being developed with Brandon Adler as the director of those. The Outer Worlds was in development at that time, so I was playing those games and getting a lot of feedback on them. But I really wasn't in a mental position to come up with new ideas for games or much less do work on them or direct anything. That’s not the case now. So I am, you know, like I'm helping on Avowed. I am in an advisory role still, but I did a little bit of writing on Avowed. I've helped out with some system design and things like that.
Basically, wherever they needed help. I am doing more hands-on work there and then just thinking and talking about ideas for future projects.
RPG Site: Speaking of future projects, why do you think studios or publishers looking for pitches are never clear enough with what they want and don’t want? This usually ends up with people who have nice ideas and concepts, but those get shot down because a publisher might not want an isometric game or a traditional CRPG.
Josh Sawyer: In my experience so far, I mean working with Xbox, we haven't really had that problem as far as I can tell, which is great. Thank you, Xbox. I think it just comes down to people not being clear about expectations. If a publisher wants pitches and we ask them “What do you want to see?” They shouldn't be vague about that. They should say “we do want to see RPGs. We don't want to see SRPGs. We do want to see pitches with romance. We don't want to see pitches with an isometric perspective.” Because if you define that box then you save everyone a lot of time.
I certainly in the past have been in situations where they're not clear and we pitch and they're like “Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great, but now let's talk about what we like. We have a license and we want you to use it for something.” It's like, why did we put together this pitch in the first place?
So thankfully I haven't really experienced much of that lately. Hopefully I will not in the future but that's usually what it comes down to. Is just people not being clear about boxes that you're working in and expectations on each side.
Josh Sawyer: In my experience so far, I mean working with Xbox, we haven't really had that problem as far as I can tell, which is great. Thank you, Xbox. I think it just comes down to people not being clear about expectations. If a publisher wants pitches and we ask them “What do you want to see?” They shouldn't be vague about that. They should say “we do want to see RPGs. We don't want to see SRPGs. We do want to see pitches with romance. We don't want to see pitches with an isometric perspective.” Because if you define that box then you save everyone a lot of time.
I certainly in the past have been in situations where they're not clear and we pitch and they're like “Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great, but now let's talk about what we like. We have a license and we want you to use it for something.” It's like, why did we put together this pitch in the first place?
So thankfully I haven't really experienced much of that lately. Hopefully I will not in the future but that's usually what it comes down to. Is just people not being clear about boxes that you're working in and expectations on each side.
RPG Site: Today is Pentiment’s second anniversary. I want to know how you feel about it right now looking back at the reception. Did you expect it to get this big where you have people sharing FaceApp memes, vinyl soundtracks selling out, people getting into The Name of the Rose because of it, and more.
Josh Sawyer: No, I mean I did believe before it launched that if it could find its audience, that that audience would like it. I thought that that audience was smaller than it turned out to be. I never had an expectation that this was going to be like a mainstream game that everybody loved. So no, I didn't expect for it to get as much notice and I didn't expect that people would still be, and I actually Search for I was looking for a specific thing on YouTube and I filtered by Pentiment for the last month, and there's a lot of let's plays where people are doing playthroughs for the first time, and posting it on YouTube, which is really cool. So seeing people come back to play it or play, you know, like a second or third time, and see different outcomes is very awesome. I am glad that it found its audience and that the audience turned out to be bigger than I expected.
Josh Sawyer: No, I mean I did believe before it launched that if it could find its audience, that that audience would like it. I thought that that audience was smaller than it turned out to be. I never had an expectation that this was going to be like a mainstream game that everybody loved. So no, I didn't expect for it to get as much notice and I didn't expect that people would still be, and I actually Search for I was looking for a specific thing on YouTube and I filtered by Pentiment for the last month, and there's a lot of let's plays where people are doing playthroughs for the first time, and posting it on YouTube, which is really cool. So seeing people come back to play it or play, you know, like a second or third time, and see different outcomes is very awesome. I am glad that it found its audience and that the audience turned out to be bigger than I expected.
RPG Site: I’ve lost track of how many playthroughs I’ve done of it across different platforms where I kept buying it, and seen friends play it on Discord. I still feel like there’s more to the game that we all haven’t seen yet, like a small animation that I hadn’t seen before. Do you think every little reference or secret the team put into Pentiment has been found out now?
Josh Sawyer: I think so. I don't think there's anything that really pops into mind. Like, oh, wait, no one noticed this yet. I think there's a lot of stuff that's very subtle that most players don't see, or only a very, very small handful of players see, and a lot of it is things that also we added later. There are background things like Sepp Hubner. He's always drinking, like, literally everywhere he is. He's always drinking so if you go to the outskirts, I can't remember the outer farms I think they're called, and there's a time of day you can go there where he's up on the roof working and you can see him working on the roof and he'll stop and he has beer like on the roof that he's drinking.
When the town mob forms, he's kind of at the back, but he's still drinking while the mob is in the clearing. So there are little things like that that I doubt most people notice, but we had a lot of fun putting them in.
Josh Sawyer: I think so. I don't think there's anything that really pops into mind. Like, oh, wait, no one noticed this yet. I think there's a lot of stuff that's very subtle that most players don't see, or only a very, very small handful of players see, and a lot of it is things that also we added later. There are background things like Sepp Hubner. He's always drinking, like, literally everywhere he is. He's always drinking so if you go to the outskirts, I can't remember the outer farms I think they're called, and there's a time of day you can go there where he's up on the roof working and you can see him working on the roof and he'll stop and he has beer like on the roof that he's drinking.
When the town mob forms, he's kind of at the back, but he's still drinking while the mob is in the clearing. So there are little things like that that I doubt most people notice, but we had a lot of fun putting them in.
RPG Site: Pentiment was built using Obsidian’s OEI tools and Unity. We discussed this last time I spoke to you, and you mentioned how every time there’s a new project at Obsidian, the tools evolve. You add to it depending on what the project needs. Have you been involved in OEI in Avowed specifically since you said you are more hands-on with it or at least more hands-on than I expected?
Josh Sawyer: Yes and no. So again, my role on the project is just supplemental. It's kind of like one of those things where it's like, hey, we don't have the bandwidth for this dialogue or we need a rewrite or additional character or whatever, and I'll dive in. But I'd say that any changes on OEI tools for Avowed were pretty much driven by that team.
It's their project and they're doing it day-to-day. I will say there was one change I think that came over from from Pentiment which was being able to group nodes which visually for navigating was really helpful, and also put in notes like you can put in little almost like post it notes which are really useful to help other designers understand what you're trying to do with things. Those features came over, but those are more general. I don't speak to anything Avowed-specific because I didn't do that much work on it.
Josh Sawyer: Yes and no. So again, my role on the project is just supplemental. It's kind of like one of those things where it's like, hey, we don't have the bandwidth for this dialogue or we need a rewrite or additional character or whatever, and I'll dive in. But I'd say that any changes on OEI tools for Avowed were pretty much driven by that team.
It's their project and they're doing it day-to-day. I will say there was one change I think that came over from from Pentiment which was being able to group nodes which visually for navigating was really helpful, and also put in notes like you can put in little almost like post it notes which are really useful to help other designers understand what you're trying to do with things. Those features came over, but those are more general. I don't speak to anything Avowed-specific because I didn't do that much work on it.
RPG Site: When Pentiment was deep in development, did you and the team expect it to reach a point where you have the vinyl soundtrack selling out multiple times and people asking for physical releases which finally happened? A lot has even changed for Pentiment since I spoke to you for its 1 year anniversary.
Josh Sawyer: I think it's a game that I never expected to have widespread appeal, but I did feel that for the people that liked it, there is a high chance they would like, really, really love it. It's sort of a mix. I'm sort of surprised, but not that surprised. I'm surprised by the number, but I'm not surprised that there are people that got super passionate about it because, you know, I, I and the team put a lot of passion into it and so I think that shows, especially with a small team, you get something that feels very unique in its viewpoint.
A lot of small games are like this with small teams. They're kind of like maybe you love it, maybe you hate it. But if you love it, there's a chance that you really love it because that team was able to really crystallize something very personal and specific to them that you can't find somewhere else and so I think that that happened with Pentiment, and I'm really grateful for it.
Josh Sawyer: I think it's a game that I never expected to have widespread appeal, but I did feel that for the people that liked it, there is a high chance they would like, really, really love it. It's sort of a mix. I'm sort of surprised, but not that surprised. I'm surprised by the number, but I'm not surprised that there are people that got super passionate about it because, you know, I, I and the team put a lot of passion into it and so I think that shows, especially with a small team, you get something that feels very unique in its viewpoint.
A lot of small games are like this with small teams. They're kind of like maybe you love it, maybe you hate it. But if you love it, there's a chance that you really love it because that team was able to really crystallize something very personal and specific to them that you can't find somewhere else and so I think that that happened with Pentiment, and I'm really grateful for it.
RPG Site: Going back to the physical release, the vinyl soundtrack, mugs, and more merchandise, I wanted to know if there are any plans to do a full artbook for the game?
Josh Sawyer: I don't know if I can speak to that. I will say that from my perspective, I don't know of any plans for that. There may be discussions happening outside of my realm of experience. I think a full artbook would be great. I don't know.
Josh Sawyer: I don't know if I can speak to that. I will say that from my perspective, I don't know of any plans for that. There may be discussions happening outside of my realm of experience. I think a full artbook would be great. I don't know.
RPG Site: When we last spoke, I mentioned how Pentiment was amazing on the Steam Deck and how it would be great to have it on Switch or iPad. You mentioned how it would be great for more people to play it back then. Fast forward to today and it has been ported to Switch and PS5. How involved were you and the team in the ports?
Josh Sawyer: We did them. I mean the team did the ports. I will say that I was involved at a high level, but I didn't have to do a lot of or really any specific work. It was mostly on Brett Klooster, who is our lead programmer, and Alec Frey, who mostly managed making sure the assets were in the right format. Nintendo and Sony have very specific requirements for those things as of course does Xbox. Every platform has specific requirements for how things are presented.
But it was mostly Brett and Alec that put in a lot of time and effort. And then of course, Xbox did testing and well, Xbox did testing and then also Nintendo had testing and Sony had testing. For the most part, thankfully, because the game is not that complex, it mostly went over fine. There were a few performance related things on the Switch. Mostly in the 3D scenes, which are very minimal. Just to make sure that it ran well, but I don't think players have ever noticed. It's something like how we crossfade scenes or something like that. It's really subtle. I've never seen a player comment on it, so it's one of those things that, you know, Brett just saw it, he said: “How about if we change this?” I said that sounds fine and he did it.
Josh Sawyer: We did them. I mean the team did the ports. I will say that I was involved at a high level, but I didn't have to do a lot of or really any specific work. It was mostly on Brett Klooster, who is our lead programmer, and Alec Frey, who mostly managed making sure the assets were in the right format. Nintendo and Sony have very specific requirements for those things as of course does Xbox. Every platform has specific requirements for how things are presented.
But it was mostly Brett and Alec that put in a lot of time and effort. And then of course, Xbox did testing and well, Xbox did testing and then also Nintendo had testing and Sony had testing. For the most part, thankfully, because the game is not that complex, it mostly went over fine. There were a few performance related things on the Switch. Mostly in the 3D scenes, which are very minimal. Just to make sure that it ran well, but I don't think players have ever noticed. It's something like how we crossfade scenes or something like that. It's really subtle. I've never seen a player comment on it, so it's one of those things that, you know, Brett just saw it, he said: “How about if we change this?” I said that sounds fine and he did it.
RPG Site: I was curious if there was any change to if you were thinking about tweaking the interface or something to make it more readable in handheld mode, but the game is Steam Deck Verified so it was already good on the smaller screen right?
Josh Sawyer: It was Steam Deck verified and we had already put in text scaling, high contrast, and a bunch of other things. We tried to safeguard, you know, it's very common now for games to come out where there are complaints about text size on different platforms, especially for a game that is almost all text, so we try to be very cognizant of that.
Josh Sawyer: It was Steam Deck verified and we had already put in text scaling, high contrast, and a bunch of other things. We tried to safeguard, you know, it's very common now for games to come out where there are complaints about text size on different platforms, especially for a game that is almost all text, so we try to be very cognizant of that.
RPG Site: Back when it was released on PS5, I laughed when I saw my monitor’s 120hz mode enabled on booting up the game. I didn’t know it had 120fps support, but that led to some let’s say interesting discussions online. Can you explain what happened there with the 120fps on PS5 and Xbox?
Josh Sawyer: I can't remember the specifics, but it was just like a mistake. It wasn't that we intended to cap it on Xbox or something. There's like a different workflow and it's funny because people made a big deal out of it. It's a 2D game where the characters are animated at 15 frames a second. So I'm like, I don't really think this is, you know, making that significant of a deal, but it became this weird console war thing. Then we patched it and then both platforms were running at 120. It's fine. There's a different pipeline for enabling certain things to make it run at different frame rates, and it was just a mistake. It was a simple mistake and it got fixed really quickly.
Josh Sawyer: I can't remember the specifics, but it was just like a mistake. It wasn't that we intended to cap it on Xbox or something. There's like a different workflow and it's funny because people made a big deal out of it. It's a 2D game where the characters are animated at 15 frames a second. So I'm like, I don't really think this is, you know, making that significant of a deal, but it became this weird console war thing. Then we patched it and then both platforms were running at 120. It's fine. There's a different pipeline for enabling certain things to make it run at different frame rates, and it was just a mistake. It was a simple mistake and it got fixed really quickly.
RPG Site: Going back to the Pentiment vinyl for a bit, which I think has sold out multiple times, I ended up getting it in a subsequent pressing, but there’s clearing a frothing demand for more of the world of Pentiment. Do you feel like doing more with it? I remember you said before that you were pretty happy with it.
Josh Sawyer: I do think an artbook for Pentiment would be great, because I think that Hannah and the other artists on the team that contributed did an amazing job.
The game excels at it's art and I think that would be great. As far as more games like it, I'm not opposed to it, but it's not like I really want to do it and I gotta do it.
With the vinyl, it's very funny because a lot of game soundtracks come out on vinyl. We really put a lot of effort into obviously the music from Alkemie, also from Kristin Hayter, but then the look and the feel on the liner notes, and like I personally spent a lot of time on that. Our internal team spent a lot of time on that.
The painting on the front, that oil painting by Benjamin Vierling was a huge effort and getting like the gold because, it's a gold pour and the disc just looks incredible, and it feels so fitting for something about illuminated manuscript. I kind of knew from the beginning.I remember when. The first two runs happened. I'm like, that's not enough. You guys have to have to make more, and there are a few people that were kind of naysayers and said game soundtracks don't sell that well on vinyl. I'm like this one I think is gonna sell well. And they're like, yeah, but your game is really small. And I'm like. I don't think it matters that the soundtrack is really good. And this format is so striking, especially with the gold discs. I think it's just gonna. People are gonna go kind of crazy for it. And so they have. But every time it's underestimated what the demand is gonna be, Did it actually sell out again? Like a third time? Is it sold out right now?
Josh Sawyer: I do think an artbook for Pentiment would be great, because I think that Hannah and the other artists on the team that contributed did an amazing job.
The game excels at it's art and I think that would be great. As far as more games like it, I'm not opposed to it, but it's not like I really want to do it and I gotta do it.
With the vinyl, it's very funny because a lot of game soundtracks come out on vinyl. We really put a lot of effort into obviously the music from Alkemie, also from Kristin Hayter, but then the look and the feel on the liner notes, and like I personally spent a lot of time on that. Our internal team spent a lot of time on that.
The painting on the front, that oil painting by Benjamin Vierling was a huge effort and getting like the gold because, it's a gold pour and the disc just looks incredible, and it feels so fitting for something about illuminated manuscript. I kind of knew from the beginning.I remember when. The first two runs happened. I'm like, that's not enough. You guys have to have to make more, and there are a few people that were kind of naysayers and said game soundtracks don't sell that well on vinyl. I'm like this one I think is gonna sell well. And they're like, yeah, but your game is really small. And I'm like. I don't think it matters that the soundtrack is really good. And this format is so striking, especially with the gold discs. I think it's just gonna. People are gonna go kind of crazy for it. And so they have. But every time it's underestimated what the demand is gonna be, Did it actually sell out again? Like a third time? Is it sold out right now?
RPG Site: I got it on the second print run.
Josh Sawyer:I know that on the third time they were like, okay Now we're gonna order like I don't remember several hundred. I'm like, OK, and then it didn't sell out right away. So if it is sold out now, I'll laugh.
Josh Sawyer:I know that on the third time they were like, okay Now we're gonna order like I don't remember several hundred. I'm like, OK, and then it didn't sell out right away. So if it is sold out now, I'll laugh.
RPG Site: Ok, it says it's in stock now.
Josh Sawyer: So if you're reading this, you can get a pentiment soundtrack but it did take 3 pressings.
Josh Sawyer: So if you're reading this, you can get a pentiment soundtrack but it did take 3 pressings.
RPG Site: One of the reasons I asked about doing more with Pentiment is because you’ve spoken about how the Pillars games were crowdfunded and that there was a limit to what you could do with them. You've previously mentioned how they had some compromise, but Pentiment didn’t have that. Was there something you couldn’t do in Pentiment that you’d like to do in a potential sequel? Maybe not storywise, but as a concept?
Josh Sawyer: You know, I'm pretty happy with it. I do really feel like there are always practical compromises for time. I do think that the idea of art without compromise is not really a true thing. You're always compromising. There are limitations to medium. There are limitations to all sorts of things and that's not bad. I don't feel like anything was compromised. There were certain things where I said we're going to have to not do as much of this and do more of that, but I don't think there's any sort of like features or scope things. If anything, the only thing I would say is it'd be good to have more reactivity, right?
You know, like more significant things that happen and change, which is really just a matter of scope, I think rather than and that's something that we always try to do on Obsidian games.
I feel like whether we're doing something like a big high profile game that has like hundreds of people on it or a thirteen person project, choice and reactivity are always going to be a thing that were we try to find new ways to really engage the player and make them excited about making choices and seeing the decisions and making that scope feel really impressive.
Josh Sawyer: You know, I'm pretty happy with it. I do really feel like there are always practical compromises for time. I do think that the idea of art without compromise is not really a true thing. You're always compromising. There are limitations to medium. There are limitations to all sorts of things and that's not bad. I don't feel like anything was compromised. There were certain things where I said we're going to have to not do as much of this and do more of that, but I don't think there's any sort of like features or scope things. If anything, the only thing I would say is it'd be good to have more reactivity, right?
You know, like more significant things that happen and change, which is really just a matter of scope, I think rather than and that's something that we always try to do on Obsidian games.
I feel like whether we're doing something like a big high profile game that has like hundreds of people on it or a thirteen person project, choice and reactivity are always going to be a thing that were we try to find new ways to really engage the player and make them excited about making choices and seeing the decisions and making that scope feel really impressive.
RPG Site: So outside of games, hypothetical situations, would you want to be involved if there was a new media adaptation of Pentiment happening like a TV show or a board game?
Josh Sawyer: It's not my purpose here. I like making games. I like spending my time focusing on making games and helping other people make the games they want to make. If people are interested in things like adaptations, novelizations, graphic novels like whatever, cool, that sounds awesome. Of course, I would like to advise on that, but that's not where I see myself spending my time. I want to make more games. I don't know how many more I got in me, but I want to spend my time really focusing on those.
I have been informed by people here that there have been inquiries about doing stuff with Pentiment, which is great. So that'd be cool, but I want to keep making games myself.
Josh Sawyer: It's not my purpose here. I like making games. I like spending my time focusing on making games and helping other people make the games they want to make. If people are interested in things like adaptations, novelizations, graphic novels like whatever, cool, that sounds awesome. Of course, I would like to advise on that, but that's not where I see myself spending my time. I want to make more games. I don't know how many more I got in me, but I want to spend my time really focusing on those.
I have been informed by people here that there have been inquiries about doing stuff with Pentiment, which is great. So that'd be cool, but I want to keep making games myself.
RPG Site: One of the funniest things related to Pentiment online is your FaceApp edits for The Name of the Rose. I’ve had friends see those and get interested in the movie or the book. I wondered which would be better to start with and decided to wait until I get to interview you again to ask about it. Do you recommend Pentiment players read The Name of the Rose or watch the movie first?
Josh Sawyer: The book is a very challenging book. It's kind of surprising because I think it's one of the top 20 best-selling books, like novels of all time, which is kind of incredible. It's been translated into a lot of languages, but it's a very dense book. It's not short and it's really thick with historical references and also a lot of a lot of things that are not in the translated language. So things that are in Latin, things that are in Hebrew, like all this stuff. So if you're not comfortable with, like really taking that as it comes, it can be very daunting. In fact, there's a book called The Key to the Name of the Rose that's kind of like a primer for people who are just not, as you know, informed about history because it's such a challenge.
The film does simplify a lot of things and it doesn't go into as much depth but I do think it gives you the flavor. There's also a miniseries adaptation that does go more in depth. Personally, I don't think it's as good. It kind of does some weird stuff. It's interesting if you're a Name of the Rose head, check it out. There is some cool stuff in it, but I would say if you just kind of want a primer and then you want to play Pentiment, just watch the film with Sean Connery and Christian Slater and F. Murray Abraham. It's great.
Josh Sawyer: The book is a very challenging book. It's kind of surprising because I think it's one of the top 20 best-selling books, like novels of all time, which is kind of incredible. It's been translated into a lot of languages, but it's a very dense book. It's not short and it's really thick with historical references and also a lot of a lot of things that are not in the translated language. So things that are in Latin, things that are in Hebrew, like all this stuff. So if you're not comfortable with, like really taking that as it comes, it can be very daunting. In fact, there's a book called The Key to the Name of the Rose that's kind of like a primer for people who are just not, as you know, informed about history because it's such a challenge.
The film does simplify a lot of things and it doesn't go into as much depth but I do think it gives you the flavor. There's also a miniseries adaptation that does go more in depth. Personally, I don't think it's as good. It kind of does some weird stuff. It's interesting if you're a Name of the Rose head, check it out. There is some cool stuff in it, but I would say if you just kind of want a primer and then you want to play Pentiment, just watch the film with Sean Connery and Christian Slater and F. Murray Abraham. It's great.
RPG Site: Back in 2022, you posted a picture of the bookshelf, which had physical books which inspired Pentiment. Since we just discussed The Name of the Rose, the movie, think of this as your closet picks for The Criterion Collection. Can you recommend some books and movies that you think your fans would enjoy? In relation to Pentiment and in general.
Josh Sawyer: In relation to Pentiment, I do think The Return of Martin Guerre is a very interesting book. It's not super long. It's by Natalie Zemon Davis, who unfortunately passed away maybe two years ago. I think it was right before Pentiment came out, but there's a very strong parallel in Return of Martin Guerre with Martin Bauer in Pentiment which I think is very interesting.
I would of course recommend Name of the Rose, but also Meetings with Remarkable Manuscripts by Christopher de Hamel, who is one of our first consultants on the game. You know, a world renowned scholar specializing in manuscripts. So I would recommend that as well, and then the last one I would say which I find very interesting is The Faithful Executioner by Joel F. Harrington, and that is about the imperial executioner in Nuremberg. Even though execution is only part of Pentiment, there's a lot of interesting things in there about social attitudes towards justice and punishment that I just found really fascinating. So those are three books.
Then films, it feels like cheating to say, Name of the Rose, so I won't say Name of the Rose, but I'll say Andrei Rublev which is much harder to get through than Name of the Rose. Name of the Rose is relatively quick moving. It's got action and it's got sex. It's got all sorts of stuff. Then I guess Andrea Rublev has a little bit of sex too, but it's very slow paced. It's like three plus hours long. It's black and white.
The structure of Andre Rublev was actually a big inspiration for the structure of our story even though Name of the Rose is the inspiration for the theme and stuff like that.
Then let's see what other movies that I think would be good. There's actually a documentary series. Look up Ruth Goodman and I think their BBC specials. There's one on life on a Tudor Monastery and there's another one that's like life in a medieval castle or something like that. Those are both really great.
This is a little bit of a cheat, but I’ll just throw it in there. So Natalie Zimon Davis, when she wrote The Return of Martin Guerre, she wrote that after she was a historical consultant for a film, Le Retour de Martin Guerre, like a French film with Gérard Depardieu. The film is also very entertaining so I'd recommend watching that.
And then what other, like good history jam? Another slow paced one would be The Mill and the Cross directed by a Polish director whose name I can't remember, but it has Rutger Hauer. It has Michael York. It has Charlotte Rampling, and it's very slow paced, but it's about the creation of The Procession to Calvary by Bruegel the Elder. It was used as visual inspiration for the windmill that Lenhardt Müller has that looks over the valley. And that's very interesting because it's about the creation of the painting, but also about 16th century Dutch society and how the Spanish Catholics interacted with the Protestants there, and it's very interesting, but it's also very, very slow paced.
Josh Sawyer: In relation to Pentiment, I do think The Return of Martin Guerre is a very interesting book. It's not super long. It's by Natalie Zemon Davis, who unfortunately passed away maybe two years ago. I think it was right before Pentiment came out, but there's a very strong parallel in Return of Martin Guerre with Martin Bauer in Pentiment which I think is very interesting.
I would of course recommend Name of the Rose, but also Meetings with Remarkable Manuscripts by Christopher de Hamel, who is one of our first consultants on the game. You know, a world renowned scholar specializing in manuscripts. So I would recommend that as well, and then the last one I would say which I find very interesting is The Faithful Executioner by Joel F. Harrington, and that is about the imperial executioner in Nuremberg. Even though execution is only part of Pentiment, there's a lot of interesting things in there about social attitudes towards justice and punishment that I just found really fascinating. So those are three books.
Then films, it feels like cheating to say, Name of the Rose, so I won't say Name of the Rose, but I'll say Andrei Rublev which is much harder to get through than Name of the Rose. Name of the Rose is relatively quick moving. It's got action and it's got sex. It's got all sorts of stuff. Then I guess Andrea Rublev has a little bit of sex too, but it's very slow paced. It's like three plus hours long. It's black and white.
The structure of Andre Rublev was actually a big inspiration for the structure of our story even though Name of the Rose is the inspiration for the theme and stuff like that.
Then let's see what other movies that I think would be good. There's actually a documentary series. Look up Ruth Goodman and I think their BBC specials. There's one on life on a Tudor Monastery and there's another one that's like life in a medieval castle or something like that. Those are both really great.
This is a little bit of a cheat, but I’ll just throw it in there. So Natalie Zimon Davis, when she wrote The Return of Martin Guerre, she wrote that after she was a historical consultant for a film, Le Retour de Martin Guerre, like a French film with Gérard Depardieu. The film is also very entertaining so I'd recommend watching that.
And then what other, like good history jam? Another slow paced one would be The Mill and the Cross directed by a Polish director whose name I can't remember, but it has Rutger Hauer. It has Michael York. It has Charlotte Rampling, and it's very slow paced, but it's about the creation of The Procession to Calvary by Bruegel the Elder. It was used as visual inspiration for the windmill that Lenhardt Müller has that looks over the valley. And that's very interesting because it's about the creation of the painting, but also about 16th century Dutch society and how the Spanish Catholics interacted with the Protestants there, and it's very interesting, but it's also very, very slow paced.
RPG Site: When we discussed Pentiment’s 1 year anniversary, you gave me an interesting anecdote about the character design behind Samuel Grau, the landsknecht. Can you give me another fun anecdote from Pentiment’s design that you haven't mentioned before anywhere?
Josh Sawyer: I think there was something with Lorenz Rothvogel about his expression, which is a specific kind of asshole smirk, and I don't know if it came before or after, but it was kind of Jason Alexander as George from Seinfeld, and it was like a very specific kind of very irritating and condescending smirk. And that's kind of what informed Lorenz Rothvogel’s appearance.
Let's see what's another one. We did realize, unintentionally, that Brother Mathieu is kind of like an alternate universe of Kim, from Disco Elysium because they're both kind of like small gay glasses wearing men. And so he became kind of this alternate universe, Kim, which everyone really liked.
Oh, and then actually another one that I can say is Caspar’s sort of overall age and size and height relationship was inspired by Young Masbath in Sleepy Hollow. So in the film with Johnny Depp, like maybe 1/3 of the way through the film, there's a boy whose father has been killed by the horseman and so he becomes not like an apprentice, but like a little helper. I gave that as a reference of how tall Caspar should be and about this age because they're close in age close in height. And so I wanted that sort of physical relationship between them.
Josh Sawyer: I think there was something with Lorenz Rothvogel about his expression, which is a specific kind of asshole smirk, and I don't know if it came before or after, but it was kind of Jason Alexander as George from Seinfeld, and it was like a very specific kind of very irritating and condescending smirk. And that's kind of what informed Lorenz Rothvogel’s appearance.
Let's see what's another one. We did realize, unintentionally, that Brother Mathieu is kind of like an alternate universe of Kim, from Disco Elysium because they're both kind of like small gay glasses wearing men. And so he became kind of this alternate universe, Kim, which everyone really liked.
Oh, and then actually another one that I can say is Caspar’s sort of overall age and size and height relationship was inspired by Young Masbath in Sleepy Hollow. So in the film with Johnny Depp, like maybe 1/3 of the way through the film, there's a boy whose father has been killed by the horseman and so he becomes not like an apprentice, but like a little helper. I gave that as a reference of how tall Caspar should be and about this age because they're close in age close in height. And so I wanted that sort of physical relationship between them.
RPG Site: Last year, I asked what you'd want to make if you, hypothetically, had unlimited time and budget: Fallout New Vegas 2, Pillars of Eternity 3, or Pentiment 2, and I think that question got picked up by tons of outlets with headlines like "Josh Sawyer wants to do Pillars 3". I wanted to know how you feel about that specific question now. Would you still want to do Pillars 3?
Josh Sawyer: I don't know. I feel like now Avowed is where the Pillars universe has kind of gone. And it'll be interesting to see where the audience picks up on that, and maybe that's where the Pillars universe kind of goes in the future. So I think there's a lot of different possibilities of what to do in the future. I do think that I am more interested in doing original IP necessarily, than existing IP. But we'll see where the future takes me.
Josh Sawyer: I don't know. I feel like now Avowed is where the Pillars universe has kind of gone. And it'll be interesting to see where the audience picks up on that, and maybe that's where the Pillars universe kind of goes in the future. So I think there's a lot of different possibilities of what to do in the future. I do think that I am more interested in doing original IP necessarily, than existing IP. But we'll see where the future takes me.
RPG Site: Did you end up finishing Pikmin 4?
Josh Sawyer: No, I did not finish Pikmin 4. I just started playing it and I need to pick it up again.
Josh Sawyer: No, I did not finish Pikmin 4. I just started playing it and I need to pick it up again.
RPG Site: For my last question I’d usually ask about your favorite coffee, but I know you’re not a coffee person. You do like your cheese. Is Red Dragon still your favorite cheese and can you give us a recommendation for some cheese you like?
Josh Sawyer: My favorite cheese is still red dragon. That's the top. I would recommend, it's hard to get outside of the US, but Hook's creamery has a really good 10 year, 12 year, 15 year, and 20 year cheddar. If you like really aged cheddars, you can't get much better than that.
Another cheddar that I will recommend is Old Quebec. Old Quebec cheddar is quite nice, and that's easier to get.
Josh Sawyer: My favorite cheese is still red dragon. That's the top. I would recommend, it's hard to get outside of the US, but Hook's creamery has a really good 10 year, 12 year, 15 year, and 20 year cheddar. If you like really aged cheddars, you can't get much better than that.
Another cheddar that I will recommend is Old Quebec. Old Quebec cheddar is quite nice, and that's easier to get.